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 4 Key Doors on a C1 
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:26 pm
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RSN: fett642657
Post 4 Key Doors on a C1
Back in Feburary of '13, I had made some rather interesting claims about Dungeoneering.

The critical path of a small dungeon has 2-3 key doors.
The critical path of a medium dungeon has 3-5 key doors.
The critical path of a large dungeon has 5-8 key doors.

At the time, this data was a flawless conclusion. I had done hundreds of each type of floor, there was no reason to suspect anything else. In fact, suspecting anything else, and I would have called myself a retard. Until today.

The information above IS correct, but there's one small caveat that must be added on. As I was slightly wrong, I feel it is necessary to tell you what that is:

The critical path can have MORE key doors, but ONLY if the critical path requires it.

A simple C1 example (the one I got) follows

Code:
   
X    X
|    |
S  - X - X
|    |
X    B


S = start, B = boss, X = other rooms, | / - = room connections

There are 4 de's that are not start or base. Thus, 4 keys must spawn.

This case is very rare. The probability of it happening is less than 1 in 200 (99.9% sure)


Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:01 pm
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
Good job being critical of your own work (no pun intended) and getting back to us when you had expanded your theory. What do you mean "If the critical path requires it"? We'd still prefer if you would upload your images to a file sharing site though.
For people who want to read the old thread is here new-dungeoneering-discovery-t3585.html

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Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:36 pm
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
Teren wrote:
posting your data is pretty much required to be taken seriously


I posted this half a year ago in your initial thread, you still have yet to provide data of any kind.

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Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:11 pm
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
Thai guy wrote:
What do you mean "If the critical path requires it"?


"If the critical path requires it" means if the critical path would be invalid with any layout of 3 keys and 3 key doors (for a C1).


Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:46 pm
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
You can't have bon on a c1 right? So 4 des=4 crit keys=has to be 4 crit key doors. That's the only situation where this could happen right?


Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:26 pm
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
Gabriel wrote:
You can't have bon on a c1 right? So 4 des=4 crit keys=has to be 4 crit key doors.

Yes.

Gabriel wrote:
That's the only situation where this could happen right?

That's his conclusion.

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Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:45 pm
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
Asking him to post proof for this imo is sorta useless. It's almost like asking someone to post proof that shades don't spawn in NE, or that the SW skater always has key. Every single floor goes along with his original theory. If for some reason he was lying, any data that could be posted could just as easily be falsified, although there isn't a reason to make a thread if he wasn't serious. Thanks for posting this though, sort of interesting. I've tested 30 smalls and a couple larges/meds myself and everything followed what you said in the first thread. What you said in this thread makes sense, but for this exception because it can't easily be tested I wouldn't be sure it's possible unless I saw proof.

e: thanks caleb for confirming. I just read his comment on old thread about actually having data. If he does then he mine as well post.
e2: more dgs completed for larges/meds could make the #s have less % to be wrong, sure theres some way to calculate that.


Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:57 pm
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
Gabriel wrote:
Asking him to post proof for this imo is sorta useless. It's almost like asking someone to post proof that shades don't spawn in NE, or that the SW skater always has key. Every single floor goes along with his original theory. If for some reason he was lying, any data that could be posted could just as easily be falsified, although there isn't a reason to make a thread if he wasn't serious.


That's very nice to hear, Gabriel. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who thought the same thing.

As I've said before, this evidence is completely open to scrutiny. About 30 minutes of C1's, 1 hour of mediums and 2/3 hours of larges and you can pretty well tell if I'm lying or not. Of course, you all thought I was lying, so... now we have this thread 5 months later detailing the other half of the mechanics.

Gabriel wrote:
Thanks for posting this though, sort of interesting. I've tested 30 smalls and a couple larges/meds myself and everything followed what you said in the first thread. What you said in this thread makes sense, but for this exception because it can't easily be tested I wouldn't be sure it's possible unless I saw proof.


That's a great point. I'll solve this soon

Gabriel wrote:
e: thanks caleb for confirming. I just read his comment on old thread about actually having data. If he does then he mine as well post.


The first 425 maps that I have are fine, but the ones after that use transparent DGSwepper maps (despite the fact that transparent maps is off), and I'm not ever going to post them in their original form. Privacy issue. I could take those apart, but that's going to take a while.

Anyhow, I'm going to send you a message soon Gabriel. I just need a few more days to be sure of something


Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:18 am
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Post Re: 4 Key Doors on a C1
campos wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
Asking him to post proof for this imo is sorta useless. It's almost like asking someone to post proof that shades don't spawn in NE, or that the SW skater always has key. Every single floor goes along with his original theory. If for some reason he was lying, any data that could be posted could just as easily be falsified, although there isn't a reason to make a thread if he wasn't serious.


That's very nice to hear, Gabriel. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who thought the same thing.

As I've said before, this evidence is completely open to scrutiny. About 30 minutes of C1's, 1 hour of mediums and 2/3 hours of larges and you can pretty well tell if I'm lying or not. Of course, you all thought I was lying, so... now we have this thread 5 months later detailing the other half of the mechanics.


This isn't a hard concept to understand so I am not sure why you're having trouble with it. You're posting on a research subforum of a fansite that takes research seriously, if you want your conclusions to be taken seriously then you need to provide data. No one has accused you of lying, in fact all of your claims have been about info that DGS has had a general understanding of for over a year. If you have been able to put an exact number on a theory that we just had a hypothesis for, that is great, but unless you provide your data then you will not be taken seriously in this forum. Don't ask people reading it to go test it for themselves when you can easily provide your data yourself. The reason we've never bothered to find the exact numbers to a general trend we're aware of is because in practical dging, knowing the general trend is far more useful than knowing the specific numbers, so no one in DGS has considered it worth their time to research. You did consider it worth your time + have research, so please provide your data and stop ducking questions about it.

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Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:05 pm
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